I'm biased...
I love MJ- and I continue to think that he's the greatest to ever play the game. Furthermore, I hate Kobe. Can't stand him- will not root for him, or a team that he plays for (hence my disdain for the current Lakers), so I'm not about to admit that I think that he's currently the best in the game.
Thank you Lebron.
For your performance this past year- capped with the sheer brillance you played with last night, will forever give me a great comeback to anyone purporting that Kobe is the best.
For those that didn't see it, the Cavs' possessions in the 4th quarter went like this. Mo Williams or Daniel Gibson brought the ball up the court.. took 3 dribbles and then passed to Lebron at the top of the key. Lebron would sit there for 10 sec, resting and planning his move. He would then dribble and dish as all five Magic players collapsed on him to give either Gibson or Williams a open look at a 3, or Varejao a layup at the rim.... or he would shake n'bake and either take it to the hole himself (dishing out painful bumps and bruises to whoever got in his way) or pull up for a short J. This wasn't just a possession or two, this happened every trip down the f_en court for the Cavs in the 4th quarter. Lebron was directly involved (meaning he scored the points or got the assist) in 32 of the Cavs 34 points in the 4th quarter (the 2 points he wasn't involved with were free throws made by Mo Williams in the last few seconds of the game- after it was all but wrapped up).
It was pretty ridiculous to watch. It felt like something you would see at an elementary school where only 2 kids on the team can dribble with any consistency without knocking it off of their shoe and the frustrated coach told his team "Ok, when we're on offense I want everyone to pass the ball to little Timmy and then get the f__ out of his way. Understand?"
Jordan? Not yet.. but then again, he's only 24.
6 Comments:
Anyone who would seriously argue that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than LeBron James either (a) is one of those douchy contrarian just for the hell of it sportswriter types, or (b) is a Lakers fan, doesn't know the first thing about basketball and probably never played the game. Hell, I don't even watch the NBA other than 5 minutes here and there during the playoffs, and even I can recognize that while Kobe's a more accomplished player (thanks to Shaq and others), and a Hall of Famer, LeBron's playing another game entirely, in another solar system. It's not even close.
Arguing that Kobe's a better player because "he's a better pure scorer" or somesuch is the equivalent of claiming that Van Halen's a better band than U2 because the Edge may be a great guitarist, but he's no Eddie Van Halen. As if the rest of the elements don't matter or something.
May 31, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Honestly I don't think it is that clear cut. While Kobe's attitude (and personal history) makes ever sane human being not want to like him or appreciate him, what he does on the court is pretty amazing, and it's not just his scoring. Lebron took a huge step forward this year on his defense, but Kobe is an incredible defender- he does not take plays off, and routinely helps out on interior defense. Kobe is also an incredible passer- evidenced by his 3yr avg of 5.2 asst/game, and a more than a respectable rebounder from the 2 position at 5.7 avg/game. What's more, he is without question the most clutch shooter in the game. I know Lebron hit that buzzer beating to win game 2 of the Orlando series, but Kobe has done that so many more times, it's nearly routine. I would venture to guess that most coaches in the NBA (excl Mike Brown) would rather having Kobe shooting the last shot in a need-to-win game than Lebron. And, then there is always that 81, and the 63 through 3 quarters.
With all that said, Lebron is a far better rebounder (though he should be given that he plays the 3) and is an equally skilled passer (7 assts/per) and last, but probably most important, he seems to be a better leader. Kobe often gets frustrated with his teammates and scowls at them- you don"t see LBJ doing that.
At the rate of improvement that Lebron has showed over the past couple of seasons, there is no doubt that he has the potential to be the best ever, but right now, I think it is very close.
June 1, 2009 at 2:47 PM
Oh, LH, thank you for engaging in discussion. I don't know where the rest of the lads have been the last week.
I know you're making the case only for "closer than it might appear" so don't think I'm taking you to task for saying what you're not. I just don't get the sense it's that close.
For example, Exhibit A in your case is that Kobe is "without question the most clutch shooter in the game." Unless you've got some contrary stats to refute, I fail to agree, my friend: http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
Based on that, I'd say any NBA coach worth his salt would actually want Carmelo Anthony taking the last shot over anyone else.
Whatever "clutch" is, in the case of Kobe Bryant, I'd say it's more hype than substance. We don't remember all the clutch shots a guy misses, just the ones they make. This doesn't really surprise me - the Lakers have gotten first game coverage on ESPN every night of Bryant's career; my guess is he's no more clutch a shooter than Derek Jeter is a hitter.
So, I went and did some poor man's numbers research, because that's the only way I can really make any statements about NBA players, since I so rarely actually watch them.
James was 2nd in the NBA in PPG this year, 4th in assists (!), 9th in rebounds, 10th in steals (!, ?) and 25th in blocks. Bryant was up there in PPG, of course, and beat James in steals per game. Beyond that, not really even close in any of the major stat sheet categories.
Recognizing that those stats are the NBA equivalent of arguing hitter quality without using OPS or VORP, etc., I checked on the John Hollinger player stats linked at ESPN. No idea who he is, but he uses an overall Player Efficiency Rating, and what basically looks like a Value over Replacement Player figure. This season, Kobe was worth 175 points over a replacement player, edging out Dwight Howard for second place. That's pretty awesome - 2 points a game you get by having him on your team instead of the league average 2 guard.
LeBron? 232 points. That's 33% better than the next best player in the league at any position. That is Bonds circa 2003.
Hollinger's other big stat is efficiency rating, which includes defense (don't know the statistical factors). 2009 - Kobe's 6th in this one. LeBron first again, by 28% over his closest competitor, Tony Desperate Housewives. 40% higher than Kobe's PER. To buttress my case with history, LeBron's topped Kobe's personal best PER in 3 of his 6 NBA seasons, and this year topped Kobe's best PER ever by a full third.
Re: the 5.2 APG 3-year average for Kobe, LeBron's career average over 6 seasons is 6.7. 29% higher from a non-guard.
I actually harbor less ill will toward Kobe than most. I see him as egotistical and selfish, but human. When asked if he ever regretted not at least playing a year or two in college, he said "Every March." He was reportedly a heck of a teammate and well-respected on the Olympic squad last year.
June 1, 2009 at 5:37 PM
Love the chatter MCA
Point of Order: If we're looking at Hollinger's stats I think it is important to look at the regular season not just playoffs. Lebron's PER (adjusted for style of play)is only 2.9% greater than 2nd place (Chris Paul). Still impressive and 20% above Kobe, but not a great deal over the other top players.
Agreed and Agreed.... thanks for listing some of the stats- I like that we can get bring sabermetrics-like stats to other sports nowadays... I would like to think it removes some of the bias (along the lines of your comment that the Lakers get favored espn coverage all of the time).
In terms of clutch- personally I don't view clutch simply as the last second shot, to me it is more like this: 5 minutes left (4th quarter or overtime) neither team ahead by more than 5 points. http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
As you can see #1 Lebron at 56 pts per 48, Kobe #2 at 52 pts. Probably a lot of problems with this statistical measure as well, but I can guaranty that Carmelo Anthony would not be chosen by most NBA coaches to take a last shot.
I would argue that there is one prevailing factor that somewhat muddies the water so to speak when we just look at the stats..and that is Pau Gasol (and to a lesser extent Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum). In other words, Lebron has to do more, because he has a far weaker supporting cast. Comparing Kobe and Lebron's top 5 supporting cast players, the Lakers supporting cast outperforms the Cavs in every meaningful statistical category (PTS +8%, Rebs +38%, Asst +9%, Stls +13% and FG% +8%). This tells me 2 things: 1) Lebron had a much tougher job of getting his team to the conference Finals than Kobe did (so he should get props for that) and 2.) I would expect that whatever team had the superstar with the weaker supporting cast, would have higher numbers- holding all else constant. Case in point, take Kobe in the pre-Pau era (06-07) his stats: 32ppg, 5.4ast, 5.7 Rebs, 1.4 Stls, 46.3%FG%.
Believe me, I think that Lebron is the better player- no question in my mind. But I still don't think that the divide is as great as the mass media portrays it, or that some of the stats imply, that's all.
June 2, 2009 at 12:18 PM
Ha! Totally didn't notice those were playoff numbers and not regular season. Shows how generally ignorant I am on the NBA as a subject and why I should keep my mouth shut.
June 2, 2009 at 12:54 PM
Wow...this is impressive.
June 3, 2009 at 6:03 PM
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